|
|
楼主 |
发表于 2014-12-25 20:45:55
|
显示全部楼层
|   
蒋中正. 军佬. Not anything but 军佬 [color=#999999 !important][color=rgb(153, 153, 153) !important][复制链接] |
| 11#
 发表于 2014-2-9 19:46:22 | 只看该作者
I have stated many times that CKS was probably the most misunderstood leader in recent Chnese history. My conviction was based on viewing the many videos re Sino-Japanese War (already re-post under "一寸山河，一寸血" of 747 Forum ) which changed my opinion of CKS completely.
The following 2 videos devoted more than half of the time to answering callers' (including mostly from Mainland China) comments on the subject. Surprisingly, these comments were all favourable & coincided with my observation that without CKS's determination & steadfastness, China would have been overrun by Japanese military, any lesser men would have surrendered.
蒋介石是中国现代第一伟人? ½ (25' 30”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvvPrZehLqw
蒋介石是中国现代第一伟人? (1/2) (24' 26")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRHc49BDZM
解密时刻：日记中的蒋介石-剿共为名，抗日为实（完整版）(49' 30")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGwePkDploY
THE LOVE STORY (MANY MARRIAGES) OF CKS
A “flower-laced news”. I didn't know CKS had that many wives, including sharing a Japanese girl with another Chinese roommate while studying in Japan! No wonder, sex was not an issue among Chinese leader when they were young!
CKS's last/final marriage was with SML & reportedly there was true love.
解密_民国风云人物-蒋介石 ½ (14' 38")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq1gYPN_I20
解密_民国风云人物-蒋介石 2/2 (14' 36")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5JObQUFLRA
|
| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
| [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 12#
 楼主| 发表于 2014-2-9 20:13:25 | 只看该作者
During a person's life (say 60~80 years) of course he has good time and bad time. Some people choose to focus the good. And the other choose to see bad. In deed he has both good/bad side.
Let's say Steve Job .....
Good Side:
He startes and innovates with PC. Success in begin and defeated (not fail) later.
He startes Apple laptop. Success in begin and defeated (not fail) later.
He started with iPhone. Success with cashflow bigger than US treasury.
Bad side:
He is 暴君 to his employees.
His employee(s) shit at him in front of their own friends even they (employee) hv good education/innovation. Some of them even choose to leave. Are these employee(s) good?
Still there are large amount of employees choose to stay & work quietly along to sucess. Are these employee(s) bad?
Steve Job success (in term of business prospective) by his supporting team. Not him alone. He is bad in handling people.
Judgement is came from your own/personal angle...... which side you wanted to look at!
|
| | [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 13#
发表于 2014-2-10 04:37:08 | 只看该作者
You are deviating from the topic which you started.
After retreating to Taiwan, CKS was no longer a military man/leader. With the US 7th Fleet patrolling the Taiwan Strait, there was stability, he therefore concentrated on implementing "3 Peoples Principles.
CKS military career ended with the retreat.
As a military man, he was not perfect. In fact, nobody in his shoes could do any better due to inferior equipments.
Any military war is a war of money, with the coastal cities all gone, the Government had NO revenue; Japan's advances in Burma, choked the only re-supply route from the outside world. Had the War lingered on for a few more months, the Chinese Government & its resistance would have collapsed completely.
Don't take my word for it, you must go thru "一寸山河，一寸血" videos to visualize the predicament of the Government & the Chinese people at that time.
That is why I spent time to search & re-post the videos for the benefit of anyone interested in recent Chinese history, particularly the Sino-Japanese War years.
FYI, I have reviewed all videos which I posted on 747. If I had not, I will say it clearly that I did not.
|
| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
| [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 14#
发表于 2014-2-12 12:48:37 | 只看该作者
dragondick 发表于 2014-2-7 11:20
I have reviewed the videos & I am very impressed. All 747 brothers who participated in the recent ...
haha...
As I said, those episodes are very good and the information is fairly unbiased.
Personally, I dislike the Western style reporting which unfairly, negatively biased toward China. The westerners uses their media especially to divide Chinese race into Taiwanese, HK and mainland.
If you read enough of their news report, you will notice that they "assume" China is the evil which always pressure neighboring countries, including Taiwan.
A weak Chinese race is beneficial to the westerners, as world's resources would flow to them. |
| | [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 1 反对 0 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 15#
楼主| 发表于 2014-2-12 21:15:20 | 只看该作者
蒋中正. 军佬. Not anything but 军佬 is the topic. (Not a leader to run a country)
No offensive to DD's video but it is oneside only persuade. A boarder angle is needed.
Let's scale it down & hope it helps (to DD).
After WW2 (1945) 蒋's , age 58, military life pushed to the top. He believes himself defeated Jap! He has been elected to member (one of 5) in Security council in UN. His personal fame pushed up even higher. Celebaration follows with expensive drinks/food. He didn't noticed a big portion of KMT's troop were came from his enemy before (defeated 軍閥s by 蒋). These soldiers gathered together for Jap's reason. Once it is ended it'll fall apart and some even joined 毛.
1946 蒋 at age 59 he even lauched attacks to 毛.
In 1949 when 蒋 stayed in Taiwan at age 62, 蒋 has no intention to develop Taiwan but one thing in his mind 返攻大陆! Only 军佬 has this kind of mind. |
| | [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 16#
发表于 2014-2-15 04:53:18 | 只看该作者
| As CKS lost, he was definitely second rate at best! |
| | [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 17#
发表于 2014-3-3 00:55:38 | 只看该作者
I wanted to comment on all these unsubstantiated statements earlier, unfortunately I was indisposed for a few weeks.
In studying historical incidents & personalities, we are studying facts. There is no place for undocumented & unsubatantiated statements, and/or fantacies.
Let me deal with all of your ridiculous statements 以正視聽 before I express mine:
1.The Chinese Government started the 7-7 Incident (Marco Polo Bridge 廬溝橋事件).
The facts: After the Republic was established in 1911, the national coffers were empty due to years of 割地賠償by the Ching Dynasty, there was a military campaign (北伐) to unify the country which was only loosely achieved by end of 1920's. The Chinese army was ill equipped with obsolete or cocktail weapons & was not ready for any military conflict with Japan.
The Japanese knew that they cannot wait a few years for China to grow/recover or this大東亞共榮圈 (Sphere of East AsiaCo-prosperity) as stipulated in 田中奏摺 (Tanaka Referendum) can never materialize. The Japan Military even boasted to the Japanese Emperor that China can be conquered within 3 months, so the Japanese Army claimed that a soldier was missing, & used that as an excuse to start the 7-7 Incident.
The 7-7 Incident was NEVER started by the Chinese Army. Only Japanese text books will say that China started this Incident, & only Japanese textbooks will deny the existence of the Rape of Nanking (南京大屠殺).
The following is an univerally recognized version of “Marco Polo Bridge Incident”:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%83%E4%B8%83%E4%BA%8B%E5%8F%98
Ask yourself, what were the Japanese soldiers performing military drill on Chinese soil, & why were the Japanese occupying all of Manchuria many years before that?
Please also review these videoes:
盧溝橋的故事
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdstZB7KhmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLuWD3zHzH8
從未公開的南京大屠殺畫面
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk9IQ6Ekaho
2.CKS was a failed stock broker when he started his career.
The facts: The lives of all recent Chinese leaders, CKS included, are like an open book. CKS was born in 1887. When he started his career, there was NOT even a stock exchange in China. Of course, CKS will fail as a stock broker. Need I say more?
3.The US equipped the Chinese Army, under CKS, better than the US Army.
The facts: Based on common sense alone, we can tell that USA was & will never be so generous as to equip another country's army better than its own army. “Equip” would also imply free-of-charge, that was simply not true.
USA was never even interested in entering into a war with the Nazis despite Winston Churchill's (British Prime Minister) pursuasion, because they were more interested in selling military hardware for a profit (發戰爭財) until a few of USA's ocean liners were torpedoed by German U-boats.
Nor was USA interested in waging a war against the Japanese until Pearl Harbour was attacked.
Up to that time, the Chinese army was absorbing the full plunge of the Japanese military assault with obsolete equipments.
4.Chinese from the north will make better leaders.
The facts: You be-littled CKS while subtly praising Mao without even realizing that CKS was from Chejiang which is north of Hunan where Mao came from.
All along, I said that CKS was probably the most mis-understood leader in recent Chinese history. Any lessor person (e.g. 汪精衛， 溥儀) would have surrendered long time ago. I am going to prove it.
With inferior equipments, the Chinese army under CKS, scores a few convincing victories, e.g. 台兒壯大捷，徐州大捷，長沙大捷 which were morale boosters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyoSIPWys80
As a comparison, let us inspect how Great Britain & USA, with far better equipments & well prepared in advance, fared against the Japanese military at the same time.
After Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, it was obvious that the next target will be to sweep through S. E. Asia for raw materials, & both the British & USA were ready for Japan.
GB. Within weeks, Britain lost Malaya & Singapore (still one political entity/colony, not yet called Malaysia). The British commander surrendered although he out-numbered the Japanese & had more equipments than the Japanese.
USA. The USA didn't want to mention this chapter of history, USA once colonized Philippines! Do you know who was in charge of the defense of Philippines?? Surprise, surprise, General Douglas MacArthur!
The same General who waged a counter attack thru island-hopping strategy, the same General who staged the signing & acceptance of Japan's unconditional surrender on board USS Missouri, & the same general who led UN troops in the Korean War!
How did General DM do on the defense of Philippines? He was surrounded on the Island of Corregidor, was facing capture or death. President Truman did not want a general of this high ranking to be captured by the Japanese & ordered his escape. Truman sent 2 Torpedo boats & General DM left in the middle of the night with his wife.
Before General DM's departure, he uttered the now famous phrase, “I shall return!”.
Yes, General DM did return, not on Corregidor but on the Island of Mindanao.
If you want to know more about Corregidor, I have searched the following for you:
The Battle of Corregidor:
http://militaryhistory.about.com ... e-Of-Corregidor.htm
Corregidor Memorial:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=c ... iw=1366&bih=673
How do I know all these? I told you that I was interested in recent history & taking advantage of my business visits to RP when I was young, I went to Corregidor twice to弔古戰場 …....... ….............This is in addition to reading PROPER history books.
Corregidor was also famous for the "Death March". 25+% of American & Philippine POW died by the road side, due to heat exhaustion, thirst, battle wounds, brutal treatments, while being marched to concentration camps by the Japanese:
Images of “The Death March”:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=t ... iw=1366&bih=673
Back to your highly praised 8th Army, did the CCP's 8th Army (八路軍) help the Government's troops in defeating the Japanese?
八路軍 was never involved in any 正規陣地戰 against the Japanese, was involved primarily in guerilla warfare. Its activities, no matter how small, contributed to the main goal; to claim full credit was not acceptable & typical of CCP's propaganda lies.
Luckily, in recent years, there was a scholar in Mainland China who spoke the truth & here are the videos:
国军打日军 共军勾结日军夹击国军 (CCP army collaperated with Japanese troops to attack Government Troops while Government troops were engaged with Japanese troops)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPMdcQbkg5A
近现代史 08 中国的抗日战争 国民党才是抗日的中流砥柱
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f8isLEnqmQ
I hope that I have done my part to help you understand recent Asian history.
If you disagree, you may respond, but please study the facts, particularly the videos “一寸山河，一寸血" & don't spread any more unsubstantiated statements & this is not the way to study historical events! |
| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
| [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 18#
楼主| 发表于 2014-3-3 19:37:29 | 只看该作者
dragondick 发表于 2014-3-2 11:55
I wanted to comment on all these unsubstantiated statements earlier, unfortunately I was indisposed ...
Hey DD, Welcome back. Really miss you (for this debate). To keep live/active .... eat-out once a week at least.
To remind you that this topic is 蒋中正, not KMT/CCP. I hv a seperate topic for KMT/CCP too.
All stories, concerning 蒋中正, that you pulled is true. I totally agree 100%. [No need to pull more/again/further as I will totally agree 100%]
Here three things I want you to answer me [please answer yes/no]:
(1) Is that 蒋中正 employ/work under KMT? [The agenda for KMT is to 推翻满清 and setup 共和国 .... right?]. 推翻满清 is 完成. Where is 共和国 under 蒋中正 (1926~1975)?
(2) 蒋 almost dismissed CCP (in 西安). If success then we don't hv 周因来 in history (周 is one of the greatest person in recent chinese history). 蒋 almost buried 周. Luckily it isn't. If you want to discuss 周 futher let's go to topic "军阀 and KMT/CCP"
(3) 蒋 thinks only 反攻大陆. No 2nd thoughts/mind in his head. Today's Taiwan is built by 蒋经国,not 蒋中正....... {If you want to discuss further let's open a seperate title for Taiwan before/after 1975}
Being a great person, the best scenario, is that (s)he must be perfect! One or two BAD things would ruin all his/her reputation. [that's why we eat-out without letting our friends/relatives know].
Don't you know/agree/understand how bad the EMPERORS affecting today's EGYPT/SYRIA/LIBYA!
|
| | [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 1 反对 0 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 19#
发表于 2014-3-4 02:19:34 | 只看该作者
The topic & subsequent comments point to CKS being a second rated military man which I contest & in particular the ridiculous & un-substantiated statements posted by hc1265 under this topic & some other topics.
As a military leader, CKS performed MUCH, MUCH BETTER than the British Commander responsible for the defense of Malaya/Singapore and General DM who was responsible for the defense of Philippines (DM escaped but his deputy – a lower ranking general surrendered shortly afterwards). Both the British & US generals had much better equipments than the Chinese Army under CKS, & were prepared for the ultimate Japanese invasion.
CKS was the MOST mis-understood military & political leader of our times. He knew full well that using the limited military resources at the outset of the Sino-Japanese War, Japan will win & over-run the country, so he avoided immediate confrontation to buy time.
You must review the videos under “一寸河山，一寸血”to appreciate the predicament which CKS was in. If you do not review them, you will never understand.
I once doubted CKS’ ability too but I changed completely after reviewing the above & listening to the interviews of personalities of that era.
CKS did not succumb to Japan & lose the whole country in 8 years of fighting with Japan, & yet he had to retreat to Taiwan within 3 years of victory over Japan. The reasons were:
1. The Chinese people suffered for well over 50 years of war & turmoil, the war against Japan was particularly devastating, & were not prepared to go thru another civil war.
2. From the outset, CCP was extremely successful with its propaganda programs, otherwize there wouldn’t even be a “Si-an Incident”. CCP capitalized on the people’s distaste for another war & on CKS’ commanding officers of troops who switched allegiance en-masse.
3. President Truman’s “White Paper” was the last nail in the coffin.
Coming back to your questions:
1. The official name of the political entity on the Island of Taiwan has always been Republic of China. Are you sure that you have never heard of Republic of China??
The president or ROC is elected by the people & can only serve 2 terms.
2. Needs no answer, just go thru my “introduction” above.
3. You are wrong. CKS stuck to “Three People’s Principle”, & laid the ground work for others to follow, notably . 土地改革 spearheaded by 農村復興委員會 which was planned for Mailand China but never had the chance to implement, and of course free election.
If CKS wanted to, he could have made himself president for life, e.g. Sadam Hussein; but he had more respect for Dr. Sun’s “Three People’s Principle”.
After CKS & if I remember correctly, the next president was 陳誠who served only one term. Then, 蒋经国, 李登輝，陳水扁，馬英九, all for 2 terms.
|
| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
| [tr][/tr]
| 回复 支持 反对 [url=]举报[/url]
| | |
| 20#
发表于 2014-3-4 02:25:57 | 只看该作者
DD you can argue any way you want. Zero in all the victories you want.
Matter of fact all the victories were won by other generals, not his direct units.
Many, including US/British, allies blamed his selfish attitude of protecting his own influence only.
Never look at the big picture war. He even attacked the 4th Army of CCP during WW2!
Only exception of the Burma campaign, with pressure from Stilwell/ Rosevelt, he dispatched his
best units & fought well. In order to secure a supply line from the south.
However 2 things never changed:
- He simply lost with plenty support from the US. Therefore no excuse.
- No great generals ever came from Shanghai/ Nanking areas. Name one?
Get it over with. Read up from all sources, US, British, USSR, Chinese accounts. Relying on Taiwan
sources will only give you tunnel vision!
|
|
|
|
发表于 2014-12-25 20:40:53
[/url]
收藏
发表于 2014-2-7 08:23:47 | 
) !, Chinese can live with one-party politics. Only Americans want to export their form of democracy!
wolves will have the time to do it.
for sure detail information.