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楼主
 发表于 2014-1-25 22:17:51 | 只看该作者 
張學良 1901~2001
張學良 hated 蔣中正 chasing 毛择东. He pushes 團结 and 反對内戰. Year 1935 張學良主動提出要求加入中國共產黨. Year Dec-1936 張與 楊虎城兵諫蔣，共同逼蔣聯共抗日，造成「 西安事變」，震驚中外。事變結果，蔣最終獲釋，而 國民政府提前停止剿滅中國共產党，中國建立形式上 抗日戰爭統一戰線。
張學良 is a powerful soldier. He can't be brain-washed by any kind!
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发表于 2014-2-2 08:52:31 | 只看该作者
張學良 is a 左膠。His act caused the death of China.
In retrospect, Japan would have been defeated by USA anyway, and would never successfully ruled China because China is a big country and the Japanese army would have been stretched too thin. And also, the Russian would never let that happen. One way or another, Japan would end up losing the war. |
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发表于 2014-2-2 08:46:43 | 只看该作者
DD, you have my highest respect. Period.
Those who think Mao is a hero. Fuck you. I have to say it. He is a devil. Worst leader in the world history. He did everything and beyond any Chinese king ever did. He completely wiped out the root of Chinese culture by killing scholars and landlords. This is what resulted in today's China. You dont need to study much history to come to this conclusion.
And those who think Deng is a hero is also dumb. He did not push for political reforms and only economical reforms. "Economic development is everything" = today's China.
The first 30 years of communist ruling destroyed the morale of the country, and next 30 years unleashed the greeds to the extreme. This country is finished. It is already dead.
And btw, don't call yourself a Chinese, unless you have a Chinese passport. You can call yourself a Chinese Canadian but not Chinese. In Chinese, you are 加籍香港人 or 華裔加拿 |
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 发表于 2014-1-29 22:05:01 | 只看该作者
Morning bros, no need to get too emotional over a scholarly debate. Allow me to give my thoughts.
CKS was a poor military and political leader. I think this is pretty much agreed by most people. Historical "what ifs" are anybody's guess, but I would speculate that had 張學良 not forced CKS to cooperate with the CCP, the Nationalist army led by CKS would have continued to spend its energies trying to 先安內再攘外. Now, even a military as powerful as today's US war machine has such dismal performance against ragtag group terrorists groups around the world. Nevermind that the CCP was very at guerilla warfare, while the CKS' military skills sucked. I would say Japan may actually been able to conquer all of China before CKS ever crushed the CCP. That would have been a disaster for us Chinese.
Now, of course, some may say 張學良 is not a hero because what he did eventually led to CCP gaining control of China, and they dislike the CCP (which is a topic for another day). However, that retrospect judgement is unfair. Very few, if any, people can predict the long-term future. I believe that 張學良 made the correct and heroic decision based on the circumstances and information that he had a available to him at that historical point in time.
Furthermore, the fact that he had the chance to collaborate with the Japs and become a traitor, but chose to risk his life and his privileged position that he was born into, THAT ALONE makes him a hero.
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-1-29 21:40:35 | 只看该作者
dragondick 发表于 2014-1-29 08:11
Review the god damn videos which I took a long time to find for the purpose of injecting some sense ...
Videos you stated are one/or many of 宣传/针对电影 whom making 阴谋/or another opinion in history. How many of THESE been recorded/mentioned in [real] history book? DD ... I don't believe you really in it?
John Kennedy shoot in Texas? There are also films/story behind the scene? How many you believe it/those? Honestly, I tell you I believe none of those. I believed JFK is killed. And the killer is killed also.
Japan today, yes 29-Feb-2014, found/owned 钓鱼岛 in their text book. But find not in Chinese text/history book. For open eye ..... Chinese would read chinese text book. While Japanese would read Japanese text book.
DD ..... Read the history book, not 宣传/针对电影.
共产党 also hv alot 宣传/针对电影. I read them but not to BELIEVE them. I trusted the fact the "马克思" doesn't work for human beings even 邓小平 say "yes".
I admire 张 because he saves MAO, by risking his life, which had changed history at the end.
I admire MAO because he can start and finish then job even he nearly been killed.
I admire 邓 because he ended the KING era.
I judged things per my OWN knowledge not, from someone (including all VIDEOs) else.
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楼主| 发表于 2014-1-27 20:08:10 | 只看该作者
My Chinese history is short and bearing my own opinion, not from pubishing/others material.
Four powerful persons after 清 collapse : 孫文,袁世凯,蒋中正 and 毛择东. None of them I am admired.
孫文: 清 would be collapsed disregard 孫文 involved or not. 孫文's "三民主義" is the main "propaganda" to make him an important person (not hero in my opinion). 1st 三民主義 doesn't work at that time [1911] ... see comments below. 2nd 孫文 started the rebel but did not finish. 3rd He had a chance to stay but allowing 袁世凯,蒋中正 to repeat what 清 has done= no 遠見.
袁世凯: He wanted to be a king. It would fail as 三民主義 is accepted by all 军阀s.
蒋中正: Is another 新军阀. He is not be supported by US also. His acts in Taiwan shown him that he wanted to be a king also. It is 蒋经国 built Taiwan while 蒋中正 thinks/plans only 反攻大陆. 蒋中正 wanted to defeat 共产党 but say no to build a better China/Taiwan. Later 蒋经国 brought no KING to Taiwan people.
毛择东: He wanted to be a king also. He diligently work on building better China in a form as King. He made mistakes but he acknowledged it. He keep making changes & wanted to find a RIGHT way. Luckily he found 邓小平. 毛择东 did kill 刘少奇, 林 bill but not 邓小平. He makes way for 邓小平 to come back when as soon as he died. Thus far 邓小平 still accepts 毛择东's hardship for chinese people. 毛择东 able to start and finish the job [bring 马克斯主義 to Chinese. Here not to argue is 马克斯 good or not] even he barely killed by 蒋中正.
三民主義 : It works in a group of civilized/educated passengers. But not in 1911 while too many 文盲. At that time the RIGHT(民权) for passengers (in a tour bus) should act as passenger (not driver)only.
马克斯主義: Doesn't work also due to human nature (自私心). Proven in China between 1949~1980.
張學良 : Without 兵諫 in 西安. 毛择东 would have been killed. 蒋中正 continues his mind as king (here not to argue whether he would bring hope to Chinese). Proven 蒋中正 passed throne to 蒋经国.
邓小平 : The 1st person bring NO king to China and he did. The true NO king era (in China) started when he died. Proven in last thiry years. |
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发表于 2014-1-28 18:56:17 | 只看该作者
Throughout all these years, I have never heard/read of Chinese leaders escalating the Marco Polo Bridge Incident into a war. Ask yourself, what were Japanese soldiers doing on Chinese soil well before JUL07 1937????????? Only Japanese text books will say China started the Sino-Japanese War!
"Unite the Nationalists & Communists" is pushing the truth. The two factions have never truly united.
In any country, insubordination in the military, especially during a war, is punishable by death. 張學良 was really lucky to escape that due to his contribution to the unification of China after 1911.
Whether he was a hero or not, is subject to debate; in my mind, he was not. Even 張學良 himself regretted the action immediately afterwards (go read some articles re the incident). Anyway, the Incident gave the Chinese Communists breathing room at a time when they face annihilation. |
| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
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发表于 2014-1-26 21:52:52 | 只看该作者
Based on common sense alone, the sensible thing to do, during the Sino-Japanese War was to form an united front to take care of the common enemy first, then settle internal differences, that's why there were NUMEROUS peace talks (國共和談), unfortunately the Chinese Communists (hereafter referred to as CC) were always asking for more than their power base warranted, or used it to buy time to build up its shattered army.
Let's face it, the CC's contribution to the Sino-Japanese War was guerilla warfare, NEVER in a large scale battle. Guerilla warfare's aim was to create disruption,win some ambushes or skirmishes, it can never win any battle.
It was not uncommon that after the Central Army defeated the Japanese & were chasing after them, the CC guerillas will enter town to claim victory.
Finally, the central government led by Chiang Kai-Sek (hereafter referred to as CKS) was convinced that it was pointless to continue peace talks as the CC army would not listen to commands & decided to pursuit the CC while fighting the Japanese at the same time.
CC's flee for survival was today glorified as ” the Long March”. In fact, CC were being chased by the Central Army, cornered & faced elimination.
To gain sympathy, CC's advertsing/PR campaign, very successfully done, was all about uniting against the Japanese, & 張學良 bought it. That is why I called it “brain wash”, of course not sitting in a classroom listening to lectures.
"西安事件" is "兵諫”, not quite coup d'etat, because CKS was the only person at that time who commanded respect (號召力) in China, & the only person who could unite the country against Japanese aggression. CKS was NON-REPLACEABLE at that time.
In any country, insubordination by any military commanders to military commands will face firing squads. 張學良 was lucky to be allowed to live under house arrest to his natural age.
The reasons for the leniency were:
1.After overthrowing the Ching Dynasty, China was ruled by warlords. In order to unify the country, the worlords must pledge allegiance to the Central Government, i.e. listen to commands, or face the fate of “北伐”. 張學良 was the son of 張作冧, who was a warlord.
張作冧 was assisinated by the Japanese, and 張學良 inherited his father's domain.
張學良 received western education, & may be of his hatred of the Japanese as well, he decided to place his army under the Central Government, & thus 北伐 was completed. Had 張學良 not do this, there will be civil war & it was NOT a sure win for the Central Government as 張學良 had a larger army, in turns of head counts than the Central Government.
So CKS felt the Republic was indebted to 張學良 & spared his life.
2.Before taking over his father's domain, 張學良 lived in Shanghai – the most modern city in Asia, at that time, he was considered one of the四大公子, i.e. playboy. This is where he met Soong Mei-ling (hereafter referred to as SML), one of the Soong sisters who was educated in the most prestigeous Women's Wellesley University in Massachusettes (A lot of USA's First Ladies graduated from Wellesley as well).
Love sparkled, & they night-clubbed together frequently.
SML subsequently married CKS. Nevertheless, 張學良 & SML knew each intimately.
During Si-an Incident, & against the advice of even CKS, SML flew to Si-an & arranged CKS's release.
SML returned the favour by “protecting” 張學良 & spared him of execution.
This is a long answer to your query.
I have the following suggested reading if you wish to pursue further:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5 ... 9.E4.BA.8B.E8.AE.8A
http://sex747.com/bbs/forum.php? ... &extra=page%3D8
http://sex747.com/bbs/forum.php? ... &extra=page%3D8
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| One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
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| 沙发
发表于 2014-1-26 02:42:03 | 只看该作者
i only know 蔣中正 and 毛择东 in ur article, so i can't really make a meaningful comment on it.
but i do love this quote
形式上统一中华民国。
u r definitely right about that
張學良.. i heard this name before, name sounds familiar but don't know anything else beyond that |
| coldfeet before the trip, it will be over soon, but so much can happen in a blink of an eye, let alone weeks. dont let me down sweetie, u gonna completely alter my lifepath once u step into that house
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| 板凳
发表于 2014-1-26 06:25:08 | 只看该作者
| For sure he did. Without him. The Chinese Communist party may have been eliminated by the Nationalist which would then be defeated by the Japanese. He is one of the biggest hero of modern China. |
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| 地板
楼主| 发表于 2014-1-26 21:16:49 | 只看该作者
Before 1927 國共 is unified & heading 北伐 (to elimiate軍閥s) . Started from south 广东. Communist 對蔣「大肆攻擊」稱為“新軍閥”，Then, 蔣"發表告民眾書" 解散上海總工會等非法組織，澈底清除中國共產黨份子. 申明「外寇不足慮」，中國共產黨實為心腹之患，如不先清中國共產黨，「則無以禦外侮」。
Mongolia depleted from China by help/influence of Russia in 1911. Now Mongolia is a satellite country of Russia.
Russia invaded 新姜 but was defeated by 蔣介石.
Japan already took Korea and Taiwan. Next is 東北 (originally滿洲国). Now .... what if
-張學良 work with Japan (alike 李登辉 said) in 1926. Both Communist/Nationalist would hv been killed.
-張學良 not forcing 國共 unified in 1936. Both Communist/Nationalist would hv been killed also.
There WON"T hv 中日战争 started 1937.
There WON'T hv 蔣中正 escaped to Taiwan 1949.
There WON'T hv issues concerning Taiwan and 钓鱼岛.
-The languages going to used either Jap or Chinese (東北/滿洲国 gaveup the own mother language & uses 汉语) among ..... Jap/Korea/China/Taiwan.
-Thus USA able to DEFEAT Germany with threats coming from Pacific (Jap/China)?
In my true Hero in recent CHINESE history whom are 張學良 and 邓小平. Next is 毛择东.
蔣介石 almost became a Chinese 罪人 in China and world.
蔣介石 wanted to elimiate communist by a communist statement that “新軍閥”，Which 蔣 almost did if there isn't 張學良 stepped in. By this 申明「外寇不足慮」，中國共產黨實為心腹之患，如不先清中國共產黨，則無以禦外侮 ................. 蔣介石 really a true 新軍閥 .
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楼主| 发表于 2014-1-26 22:32:33 | 只看该作者
張學良 1901~2001. 1919年就读于奉天講武堂。1920年后以砲兵科第一名毕业 (age 20) . He hasn't educated in the west. 張學良 didn't achieve ANYTHING BIG in his life but just two (1) Not bow to Jap & (2) 兵諫蔣介石 stop hunting 毛择东. These two makes history changed. (disregard whether he is playboy or not)
蔣介石's artillery supplied by the US. 毛择东 not. True, it is 蔣介石 dragging Japanese, not communist, until 1945.
After 1945 蔣介石 still hv the same artillery (US supllies). He stays alive with Japanese but not the communist/people. The truth is 蔣介石 is another "新軍閥". |
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楼主| 发表于 2014-1-26 22:42:40 | 只看该作者
Playboy not necessary a bad guy (see all brothers/wolves here, including me). At least, we are not criminal. We just have a hobby (in common) that could not tell our gf/wife/public. 
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发表于 2014-1-27 03:48:37 | 只看该作者
he lived for 100 years. u guys provide a lot of information, hard for me to digest. so he was a playboy, does that mean he was a hunter??
so he didn't bow to japanese, i wonder if he had any sushi meals |
| coldfeet before the trip, it will be over soon, but so much can happen in a blink of an eye, let alone weeks. dont let me down sweetie, u gonna completely alter my lifepath once u step into that house
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发表于 2014-1-27 18:55:19 | 只看该作者
tomsiu 发表于 2014-1-26 08:16
Before 1927 國共 is unified & heading 北伐 (to elimiate軍閥s) . Started from south 广东. Communist ...
You must study recent history diligently or writings on Chinese historical events B4 making comments like that.
Allow me to enlighten you:
1. After Japan surrendered, Russian army which was still in Manchuria, collected military hardware from Japanese soldiers who surrendered & turned them over to the Chinese Communists. Don't forget that Russian has always supported the Chinese Communists & not the Nationalist Government.
2.Yes, the Central Government's soldiers used weapons bought from USA, however, major factors contributed to why mainland was lost within 2 years while Japan was not successful in 8 years.
A. The "White Paper" of President Truman. I guess that you have never heard of it (obviously you do not study history & based on hear-say for your comments).
After the War, USA sent an envoy to China to negotiate peace & 2-party government structure. (USA firmly believes in democracy without regard for local condition which may not ready for democracy, even up to today. This is why USA made the same mistake in Iran under Jimmy Carter, Iraq & West Bank under George Bush, & Egypt under Obama. This is a separate issue, so I will not elaborate further here.)
The negotiation broke down, because the Chinese Communists wanted more Provinces to be placed under their control than they justified. Mind you, the Chinese Communist army was just a group of bandits at that time, scattered around the country side with no control over any of the major cities.
The USA envoy left China dejectedly but felt that the Chinese Communists could better represent the Chinese people & made recommendation to President Truman.
Truman issued a "White Paper” which is a term given to an official document outling the position of the US government. In that Paper, Truman denounced the Nationalist Government (You can call this interference in Chinese domestic affairs), withdrew support of the Nationalist Government & stopped selling weapons to the Nationalist Government.
You can imagine the impact on the Nationalist government. The Chinese Communists were getting support while the Nationalist Government was betrayed by its war-time ally.
B. The Chinese people lived under war & fear since the end of the 19th century, close to ¾ of a century, bore the hardship in the war against Japan, & everyone was ready to live a peaceful life without fear of another civil war, so when the US White Paper was issued, the tide changed.
As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese Communist had been very successful with its propaganda.
When CKS ordered troops to attack, the whole army surrendered to the Chinese Communists.
And that is why mailand was lost so quickly & the Nationalist Government had to retreat onto the island of Taiwan.
Just a few years after the Nationalist Government moved to Taiwan, the Korean War broke out. The Chinese Communists sent “volunteer soldiers” to help North Korea & that's when US Government realized the mistake, & introduced embargo on Communist China.
張學良 is definitely NOT a hero. The Si-an Incident gave the Chinese Communists time to re-group at a time when it faced elimination.
Without CKS's determination to resist & fight, China would have succumbed to Japan's aggression.
During the Sino-Japanese War, CKS had on one occasion decided to retire into obscurity but was asked to return to lead the country because he was the only one who had the respect of all the army commanders.
CKS fought the Japanese in the best way he could, just like Russia in its war against the Nazis, by using the vast land to suck in the Japanese.
In the beginning of the War, the Chinese Army was ill equipped. Only 3 pitiful Divisions had modern equipments, one of which was used in the Battle of Shanghai (四行倉庫). If all modern army was thrown into immediate battles & got eliminated, China will have no army to defend itself, CKS therefore ordered mass retreat, destroying railways on the way, scuffled naval vessels in Yangtze River to prevent Japanese battle ship from sailing upstream, destroyed dams & dykes of Yellow River to prevent Japanese mechanized troops from moving quickly.
All of the above you can find in history books or in the suggested videos which I asked you to review. If you do not read history books or the videos painstaking prepared by historians, We cannot discuss this subject intelligently & you will always have this ill-conceived idea of Chinese history. |
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发表于 2014-12-25 20:49:12
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楼主
), can read quickly, & in particulary, devoted time & energy to studying developing international affairs/politics & events affecting Chinese history. 
