American. The best/ugliest but no bad! [tomsiu]

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American. The best/ugliest but no bad! [color=#999999 !important][color=rgb(153, 153, 153) !important][复制链接]

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tomsiu 107 主题 5068 帖子 1万 积分 金牌会员 积分11216 发消息	电梯直达[url=][/url] 楼主 发表于 2014-2-4 23:02:54 | 只看该作者 In 1789 Washington makes history to American. His fellows Adams & Jefferson make changes to world by inspiration of 共和. The WORLD then, not the same anymore. This administrations make American stronger and stronger in an isolate/peaceful northern continent. A lot of European sailed toward to this new land. They wanted free from dictators, war. They don't mind left their ancestors behind & built a new home. In US administration they support 共和 and will turn down 獨裁. [This is the reason US support CKS at begin and leave him later]. US wanted all countries in the world must be formed as 共和. Their leader must be elected (by votes). This inspiration of 共和 deeply favoured by people in the world and leaving all leaders havn't have any other choices. Indeed it is not bad. After 2nd world war US dominants in area of politics/military/Ecnomy. US able to bring in the most talented human beings to their office. US doesn't want to see any blockage to this supremacy. All kind of 方法 deployed. [Edward Snowden cases is the latest one we noticed] More ugliest then come. If any (elected) leader not in his favor US will support a new candidate(s) (expecting to replace him/her). We seen this happened a lot in middle east. In HK the one we know is 李柱名. From time to time 李柱名 has to pay visit to US congress/office.
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tomsiu 107 主题 5068 帖子 1万 积分 金牌会员 积分11216 发消息	沙发   楼主| 发表于 2014-2-5 20:58:17 | 只看该作者 After 200 years since Washington/Adams/Jefferson formed of central power system and proven success. US further develop another powerful Agnecy NSA (added to CIA) to strengthen its control/survenance over countries. NSA and CIA became 左右护法 to central administration. These give no chance to any other countries (come closer/challenge to US) whom choose to follow US system. They MUST have their knee down in front of (any) Samuel anytime. I do because I hv Canadian passport. For country to break through this a new (power) system must be developed. By today only Russia dare to contain Edward Snowden (not even China). It is not bad as US doing what 秦始王 has done without bleeding (blood).
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dragondick 343 主题 8619 帖子 1万 积分 金牌会员 积分18896 发消息	板凳 发表于 2014-2-6 09:39:45 | 只看该作者 Americans, in general, do not study history & are extremely naive.  Their goal in international political scene is to export democracy no matter whether the host country or ally is ready for it or not. In 1947/1948, they thought CCP will give more democracy to the people, so withdrew support of the Nationalist Government in the White Paper.  Withdrawing support is one thing, denouncing the government is interference in  domestic affairs of another country! Where is democracy in China today?  There is democracy in Taiwan though, the very government which USA withdrew support. Take Iran for instance, Jimmy Carter said that the Shah of Iran, who was a loyal ally for many years, was not elected by the people & forced him out, making way for Ayatollah & extremists to take over the country.  The Shah fled & went to France, then USA for cancer treatment.  The extremists demanded his extradiction which USA declined.  The extremists quickly stormed the US Embassy & held most diplomats hostage. For God's sake, Jimmy didn't even know that NONE of the rulers in the oil rich middle east was elected by the people, e.g.  Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.  Luckily, his advisors stopped him after giving up on Iran, otherwize, all the oil producing countries in the middle east will be under the control of Islamic extremists today. In Vietnam, the local Government fought the VC to a stalemate.  USA thought they could show the local troops how to fight & win.  400,000+ troops, tons & tons of bombs, still stalemate but several thousand GI's died.  Initialled direct  peace talks with VC in Paris, then forced the local Government to accept the Agreement. Once the Agreement was signed, USA started the pull out, leaving the local Government high & dry.  VC never honoured what they signed, & "unified" north & south. I can cite USA's failures in Afghanistan & Iraq as well.
	One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil Armstrong, JUL21 1969.
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Ben2009 408 主题 2937 帖子 4万 积分 超级版主 积分45801 发消息	地板 发表于 2014-2-6 11:11:38 | 只看该作者 There is a saying, "Americans think 100 years ago is ancient history, Europeans think 100km away is a distant country". Americans generally do not study nor appreciate history, so its natural that they don't learn from past mistakes.
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chef123 5 主题 361 帖子 1411 积分 中级会员 积分1411 发消息	5# 发表于 2014-2-6 15:01:23 | 只看该作者 American is all about next-gen - new home, new country, new technology, etc...it's all about the future.  That's in their DNA and that's why they can innovate and dream about new things. Chinese, in contrast, is about her 5000 years of history.  In terms of mindset, China today isn't much different from 2000 years ago and probably worse.
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tomsiu 107 主题 5068 帖子 1万 积分 金牌会员 积分11216 发消息	6#   楼主| 发表于 2014-2-6 20:26:09 | 只看该作者 Ben2009 发表于 2014-2-5 22:11 There is a saying, "Americans think 100 years ago is ancient history, Europeans think 100km away is  ... Americans think 100 years ago is ancient history, Europeans think 100km away is a distant country   ~~~ I heard this sentence 40 years ago from an English policeman in HK in Cantonese while we having a casual drink in a bar. Ben 哥, Is it your own statement or you re-quote from somewhere? American is all about next-gen  ... future. True, really true.
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Ben2009 408 主题 2937 帖子 4万 积分 超级版主 积分45801 发消息	7# 发表于 2014-2-7 08:07:33 | 只看该作者 tomsiu 发表于 2014-2-6 07:26 Americans think 100 years ago is ancient history, Europeans think 100km away is a distant country  ... Haha, I am not that wize. I heard it from elsewhere.
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Ben2009 408 主题 2937 帖子 4万 积分 超级版主 积分45801 发消息	8# 发表于 2014-2-7 08:21:26 | 只看该作者 chef123 发表于 2014-2-6 02:01 American is all about next-gen - new home, new country, new technology, etc...it's all about the fut ... True, but many Chinese people today, especially HK-ers grew up with a Western mentality that does not value history. That is why they are ashamed of being Chinese. China of the past 100 years has been full of humiliation and shame. However, given our 5000 year history, most of it being glorious. That is like a normally healthy man falling sick for a few months. Let me point out a few things to those who are ashamed of being Chinese. 1) China is corrupt. Yes. However, poor countries are always corrupt. It is not a problem unique to China. And yes, China is STILL a poor country on a per capita basis. I challenge anyone to name me one country that has a similar per capita GDP that is not corrupt. 2) There has been many great empires/civilizations throughout history. All of them eventually got wiped out. Why? Because they all follow the same pattern: a glorious rise, decadence, moral decay, selfish infighting amongst its elites, downfall. This is the same for ALL empires with the sole exception of China which has again and again risen from the ashes. 3) Many believe China's current state is "hopeless". I beg to differ. While many look to Western democracies as ideal and lament China's dictatorship as hopeless and doomed to fail. It is important to note that these Western democracies took hundreds of years to develop, and even a hundred years ago, the United States was not that different from China of today. Business were all robber barons, officials were all corrupt, etc. In fact, even HK before ICAC was pretty much the same as China today.
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chef123 5 主题 361 帖子 1411 积分 中级会员 积分1411 发消息	9# 发表于 2014-2-7 14:05:32 | 只看该作者 Many Chinese like to learn history, but they choose to only believe certain things and blindly ignore other facts.  There are still great things about China and Chinese, but all Chinese should be ashamed of the state of their country today.  The fact that Chinese people do not feel ashamed of where things are today makes this country hopeless.  知恥近乎勇.  But today, it seems Chinese rather value 不知恥才夠勇. I used to be proud of being a Chinese and HKer, but today, I am only proud of being HKer.  I had given up hope on China.  I had hope before 2008, and thought this country would improve even in baby steps while developing its economy in rocket speed.  But nope, things went backward like no tomorrow. The world today is very different from the past 5000 years.  The world is flat and connected today, whereas it was isolated in the past.  So, China was able to act like its the "center of the world" and without being challenged by other nations.  This doesn't mean the 5000 years are useless.  In fact, the culture power of 5000 years of history is very powerful, but the Chinese government has chosen to re-engineered the country into a state that it can remain in power.  It uses the advantages of capitalism to keep the country running ahead, and uses nationalism to deflect internal conflicts to foreign powers.  It picks off certain historical view that fit well for the government.  There is a good reason why CCTV makes TV dramas of past Chinese "great" emperors.  It's part of the brainwashing to remind Chinese that having a strong government is great, scarifying individual for the so-called greater good is right, and having a united one country will help the country to be stronger.  These are all lies to exploit the weakness of Chinese to give up fighting for human rights and freedom. 1) Picking off other corrupted countries does not make China to be less corrupted.   It's 魯迅's 臭虫論.  「中國多臭蟲，但西洋也有臭蟲。」等同很多人說「你說中國多貪污，但外國也有貪污」 臭虫論 doesn't help to move the country forward, but rather giving it excuses to go backward.   2) Well, China's state of today is very different than in the past.  The culture, language, and everything is being wiped out.  The country is obsessed with building big cities and destroying all the "old" stuffs.  If there is a little bit of "old" stuffs left, the real reason is that it's being branded as a tourist spot to grab money.  The class of scholars had been wiped out by the communists who are really mostly peasants.  In the past, when a peasant becomes a king, the new king still values the scholars who help him to run the country.  Today, China is being run by a group of peasants, who run another layers of peasants.  The class of scholars no longer exist.  This is the beginning of the death of a civilization. 3)  All dictatorship had eventually failed in the history, and it comes with a great cost.  The longer it takes, the higher the cost.  Yes, the western states were corrupted back then, but its people are always willing to fight for the better good.  Look at South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan.  I don't see the same in China.  Chinese people only look up to Money today, and that's pretty sad. And ICAC was setup by the British.  It's proven that Chinese need external pressures to improve and reinvent themselves.  But once the external pressure is gone, it goes backward.  ICAC has lost its reputation today because its leader wanted to collaborate with China. Just look at HK today, having China to instruct HK on the process of achieving democracy is a joke.  It's like a pig teaching a monkey on how to climb a tree.
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tomsiu 107 主题 5068 帖子 1万 积分 金牌会员 积分11216 发消息

10#   楼主| 发表于 2014-2-7 19:10:46 | 只看该作者 chef123 发表于 2014-2-7 01:05 Many Chinese like to learn history, but they choose to only believe certain things and blindly ignor ... Let's come to brain flush first: If u come to work for IBM & collecting salary should u saying shit against IBM in front of your friends? Or should you using IBM's time to do things for AMD? If u live in your father's home should u saying shit against your father in front of your friends? Or should you using your father's money to feed your jj (eatout)? Don't you agree HK/Macau belongs to China? Or don't your agree China father HK/Macau? What's wrong for father teaching (good or bad are another subject) his kids? If you agree these principals then we can continue (debat). And would continue on seperate subject of "good or bad". If u not agree then we better stop here.

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chef123 5 主题 361 帖子 1411 积分 中级会员 积分1411 发消息	11# 发表于 2014-2-8 05:58:17 | 只看该作者 You have exactly illustrated the fundamental culture difference of east and west, and the typical Chinese mentality of "I am your father, and I ate more salt than you eating rice". In today's business world, you have to sign an NDA when you join a company, and sometimes have to sign non-compete agreement when leaving a company.  These are all normal practices.  So, there are things that you cannot do and cannot disclosure that could cause damage to the company.  Saying shits against the company you work for is a different thing.  If you don't believe the company is doing the right thing, then it is perfectly fine to speak up in a constructive manner.  The assumption is that the management will listen to you, and be open to work with you to resolve the issue.  If that doesn't happen, then you can either choose to leave or stay. Now, saying shit against the company in front of your friends is a different thing.  They are your friends, and so it's a closed circle.  Saying shits against the company in public is a different story.  What you say have to hold the ground.  If not, it will backfire and that's the risk that you will have to take.  You can say anything you want as long as you don't disclose any confidential secrets or anything that could cause damage to the company.  Everyone rants about their work.  So, what?   Next, let's get to the father's part.  Here is what I disagree.  This whole father, mother, brother, sister, and family relationship DO NOT apply to government and citizen.  Government and citizens should be in equal ground.  There is no father and son BS.  And there is the fundamental difference when it comes to east vs west mentality.   And btw, it's the tax payers who pay taxes to the government.  So, it should be the other way around. I don't want to get personal here.  But I think it's you who needs a brain flush.  Time to go visit some MMs to avoid  sperms accumulation in your brain.  Happy hunting
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Ben2009 408 主题 2937 帖子 4万 积分 超级版主 积分45801 发消息	12# 发表于 2014-2-8 08:22:38 | 只看该作者 chef123 发表于 2014-2-7 01:05 Many Chinese like to learn history, but they choose to only believe certain things and blindly ignor ... Looks like we all have different opinions which is good. I think you make a pretty good argument. I do agree with you China's current situation is very bad. However, I do not agree that it is "hopeless". 1) Using other countries as comparison is not meant to be an excuse. Its not meant that we should accept the corruption because other countries are corrupt. However, it is meant to provide an objective look at the situation for what it truly is. It is meant for those who are blindly self-loathing and think that we Chinese are inherently weak, corrupt, useless, and irredeemably bad. 2) The scholars have been wiped out by different tyrant emperors in the past. They have always made their come back. Wounds take time to heal. Especially major wounds. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, since this is pure speculation, and mine is that the Chinese academia/literati class will re-build itself in time. 3) Beg to differ on this aspect. There are still many people in China fighting for freedom and willing to make huge personal sacrifices to make a difference. As much as China censors information, we still know a great many of these people exists. Every year China jails many activists and yet more still appear. This proves the situation is not "hopeless". 4) Lets put things into perspective. Not just China, but all entities, be in nations, empires, corporations, usually fall into a state of apathy and decay after they get to the top. With the exception of China, that is also the way all the other great empires got destroyed. Same can be said for corporations, except that unlike empires, external pressure is sometimes able to jolt some of them out of their comfort zone to reinvent themselves, while others fail to adapt and eventually cease to exist. Points I'm trying to make is the following: * We should not make excuses, and we should take a cold hard look at the problems facing China and try our best to fix them. * However, we should not be be too pessimistic or self-loathing. None of the problems that China is facing (corruption, moral decay, poor governance, pollution, etc) is uniquely a Chinese problem, rather, they are common problems to all nations/organizations in similar circumstances, that China is currently having. The only unique aspect to the problems China is facing is magnitude, since China is most populous nation on earth, all problems are magnified compared to other nations. * Communism is an IDEAL that does not work in real life. Communism in-practice has failed in all the states that adopted it. Similarly, true democracy is only an IDEAL. Democracy in-practice has fared better than communism, but it has failed in far greater number of nations than it has actually succeeded in. Those who think "democracy" is the answer are not very well educated in history or politics. Many of the war-torn African nations are democracy, India (which is more corrupt than China) is a democracy, Thailand and Egypt are democracies. These are the examples to look at, not the successful Western European & North American democracies which are the exception rather than rule. * We can argue all day about whether China's situation is getting better or worse. Whether is hopeless or not. At the end of the day, we will not get anywhere, because its all pure speculation. But here is a fact, social progress takes A LONG TIME to achieve. To get some perspective, just take a brief look at the subsequent ups and downs and social upheavals in French society after the French revolution. For China, it has only been a little more than one generation since Deng Xiaoping initiated reforms after Mao's lunatic devastation. One generation for a nation is a VERY SHORT TIME (although it is a very long time for an individual). To look at such a short period of time and render verdict, is like looking at the progression of a patient's illness for 2 minutes and making a conclusion of whether he is getting better or worse.
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Ben2009 408 主题 2937 帖子 4万 积分 超级版主 积分45801 发消息

13# 发表于 2014-2-8 08:34:15 | 只看该作者 PS, for all those people here who would like to debate. Lets keep in impersonal. Its natural that everybody thinks they are right and others are wrong. However, lets just concentrate on debating the issues, and keep comments such as, "you are ignorant", or "that shows how little you know", etc, etc, out of this.